Wayne, your deep thinking on these matters of theology is extraordinary. I admire it! I have pondered for quite some time the perils of our human need to label everything and place it in its neat little box. We feel like we have to label it to understand it and control it. It strikes me that these ideas of “heresy” are that same way. Everything has to be classified as “heresy” or “not heresy” so we can feel better about to oppose it or agree with it.
God is much bigger than our feeble minds can fathom. We keep trying to label things and settle our mind, but it does Him (and us) a great disservice.
This is interesting! But as an Orthodox Christian, all the “heresies” you mention are in fact actually recognized as deviations from the apostolic teaching as preserved in the traditional Christian East (Orthodox Church), including Augustine’s formulation of original sin. And Wycliffe, Tyndale etc all contributed to “re-approximating” this traditional, apostolic teaching which had been lost in the West. If you’re interested to read more about the development of Western theology from an Orthodox perspective, and how the traditional, Orthodox teaching compares, I recommend Paradise and Utopia by John Strickland.
Thanks for the comment! I'm definitely unfamiliar with some of this, but I'm interested to learn. My tradition is probably about as far from Orthodox as one can be.
Thanks for sharing your thoughts! Of course there are those who will cry "rank heresy" at this post. I'm getting close to the point of shedding the unconscious fears (so close!) of just saying what I know to be true: That God created the world perfectly and sin is ultimately failure to live in celebration of that reality.
I will also add that doctrinal statements since Augustine onward have become "canon" in my tradition (PCA) Therefore, appeals to the Bible to try to lead people out of guilt and shame for simply being alive do not work since later doctrines emphatically declare that we are all cosmic mistakes and not beloved children of God (or, at least, not until we believe the right mental thoughts in our heads)
The doctrines of the reformed church have become a convoluted maze of academic systematic theology. Any phrases or language that does not use the ESV and Westminster Shorter are rejected as heresy. Any reinterpretation of scripture is rejected because "it's all already been codified and explained" in the Westminster and the book of church order.
Of course, I could leave my denomination, and thus be free to speak more freely of God's perfect love and our perfect status as his children.
But alas, for now, I will use the right words and be all things to all people, so I might win some :)
Jered, thanks for the perspective! I often forget about traditions/denominations in their modern form when I read ancient church literature, probably because my tradition is so notoriously anti-tradition.
I think there's something honorable about staying where you are—where God put you—even when there are things you disagree with. Surely to whatever extent our various traditions are the inventions of man, they are fallible and mere human collectives with finite destinies. It is only to the extent that they are equally the universal church that they are eternal. It has to be ok to live in that tension, because there's no group of Christians we can join to escape it.
And yeah, no one has cried "rank heresy!" yet, but I have lost a few subscribers over this one. Kinda figured that would happen though.
There's a lot of good stuff here, Wayne. For those wanting to wrestle with these sorts of issues, I recommend getting a spiritual director. It helped me enormously when I felt the need to grapple with some of the contradictions I saw in my understanding of the faith. Not that it was easy—I often felt afraid that outside forces were threatening me, endangering my soul. But the experience made me realise how limited I was in my knowledge about the Bible and theology in general, especially considering how many people have dedicated their entire lives to studying the meanings of texts and how different denominations have developed certain emphases. Having someone to walk beside me in the process kept me from lashing out in anger against those I thought had failed to prepare me properly for the faith crisis I was in, which I believe is very important for keeping relationships intact until you reach a place of acceptance.
Leanne, thanks for sharing your perspective! I think learning to wrestle through crises of faith and hanging on to it on the other side is really good for us. I agree that relationships are super important.
Wayne, your deep thinking on these matters of theology is extraordinary. I admire it! I have pondered for quite some time the perils of our human need to label everything and place it in its neat little box. We feel like we have to label it to understand it and control it. It strikes me that these ideas of “heresy” are that same way. Everything has to be classified as “heresy” or “not heresy” so we can feel better about to oppose it or agree with it.
God is much bigger than our feeble minds can fathom. We keep trying to label things and settle our mind, but it does Him (and us) a great disservice.
James, thanks for the encouragement! And I feel the same way.
This is interesting! But as an Orthodox Christian, all the “heresies” you mention are in fact actually recognized as deviations from the apostolic teaching as preserved in the traditional Christian East (Orthodox Church), including Augustine’s formulation of original sin. And Wycliffe, Tyndale etc all contributed to “re-approximating” this traditional, apostolic teaching which had been lost in the West. If you’re interested to read more about the development of Western theology from an Orthodox perspective, and how the traditional, Orthodox teaching compares, I recommend Paradise and Utopia by John Strickland.
Thanks for the comment! I'm definitely unfamiliar with some of this, but I'm interested to learn. My tradition is probably about as far from Orthodox as one can be.
Thanks for sharing your thoughts! Of course there are those who will cry "rank heresy" at this post. I'm getting close to the point of shedding the unconscious fears (so close!) of just saying what I know to be true: That God created the world perfectly and sin is ultimately failure to live in celebration of that reality.
I will also add that doctrinal statements since Augustine onward have become "canon" in my tradition (PCA) Therefore, appeals to the Bible to try to lead people out of guilt and shame for simply being alive do not work since later doctrines emphatically declare that we are all cosmic mistakes and not beloved children of God (or, at least, not until we believe the right mental thoughts in our heads)
The doctrines of the reformed church have become a convoluted maze of academic systematic theology. Any phrases or language that does not use the ESV and Westminster Shorter are rejected as heresy. Any reinterpretation of scripture is rejected because "it's all already been codified and explained" in the Westminster and the book of church order.
Of course, I could leave my denomination, and thus be free to speak more freely of God's perfect love and our perfect status as his children.
But alas, for now, I will use the right words and be all things to all people, so I might win some :)
Anyway, I ramble. Enjoyed the post!
Jered, thanks for the perspective! I often forget about traditions/denominations in their modern form when I read ancient church literature, probably because my tradition is so notoriously anti-tradition.
I think there's something honorable about staying where you are—where God put you—even when there are things you disagree with. Surely to whatever extent our various traditions are the inventions of man, they are fallible and mere human collectives with finite destinies. It is only to the extent that they are equally the universal church that they are eternal. It has to be ok to live in that tension, because there's no group of Christians we can join to escape it.
And yeah, no one has cried "rank heresy!" yet, but I have lost a few subscribers over this one. Kinda figured that would happen though.
There's a lot of good stuff here, Wayne. For those wanting to wrestle with these sorts of issues, I recommend getting a spiritual director. It helped me enormously when I felt the need to grapple with some of the contradictions I saw in my understanding of the faith. Not that it was easy—I often felt afraid that outside forces were threatening me, endangering my soul. But the experience made me realise how limited I was in my knowledge about the Bible and theology in general, especially considering how many people have dedicated their entire lives to studying the meanings of texts and how different denominations have developed certain emphases. Having someone to walk beside me in the process kept me from lashing out in anger against those I thought had failed to prepare me properly for the faith crisis I was in, which I believe is very important for keeping relationships intact until you reach a place of acceptance.
Leanne, thanks for sharing your perspective! I think learning to wrestle through crises of faith and hanging on to it on the other side is really good for us. I agree that relationships are super important.